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Monetization | A list of ethical and privacy-respecting ways Peertubers can make money #1586

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ghost opened this issue Jan 29, 2019 · 100 comments

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@ghost
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ghost commented Jan 29, 2019

If someone chooses to monetize their videos, what ethical options do they have? Let's suggest ways (technical and non technical) for Peertubers to earn money.

First lets include the official suggestion from joinpeertube.org:

  the solution proposed to people who upload videos is to use the "support" button under the video. This button displays a frame in which people who upload videos can display text, images, and links freely. For example, it’s possible to put a link to Patreon, Tipeee, Paypal, Liberapay (or any other solution) there.

A suggestion I could think of:

  • Find a website/platform where advertisers meet directly with content creators (Peertubers). Next offer them to promote their product in videos you make and see how much they can pay you (per video).

What's yours? Let's expand the list.

⚠️ What we probably want to avoid, is a monetization system that favors the users of big instances. This will kill decentralization. A PeerTuber should never have to think like: "If I join this big xyz instance I will make much more money as opposed to joining a recently created instance."

@Nutomic
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Nutomic commented Jan 30, 2019

Another option would be Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency. The good thing about that is that all the software is open source, and easy to automate. The simplest way to implement this would be just show an address where users can send money to. Ideally it would create a new address for each donation for privacy reasons (so it is harder to tell how much money someone received, or who they received money from).

Another option would be to integrate Liberapay support.

@axelsimon
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axelsimon commented Jan 30, 2019

I think cleanly integrating things such as Liberapay, Patreon and the likes, and actually working with those entities to make sure it works well, could make a huge difference.

Peertube as a global platform will only be as successful as it is successful with content creators.
Without content creators wanting to use it, it will essentially be a backup solution for Youtube videos and the playground for a few convinced video makers.

Cryptocurrency integration, while interesting on paper, is not likely to be useful anytime soon, given most people have no idea how to use Bitcoin, Ether or anything else.

I agree encouraging ads would be counter-productive, as this is not the Internet PeerTube is pushing for.
However, Read the Docs explanation about "ethical ads" might still be worth the read and consideration.

@therahedwig
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Patreon has an API that can be integrated with, but liberapay and open collective do not. Nor does kofi. Liberapay explains that they are not a 'paywall' service like they imply Patreon is, but a donation platform(you're not supossed to be giving perks to people when they donate as that can be seen as selling a service instead).

For someone to self-host a paywall service, they'd proly have to implement a customer relation manager(like civicrm) to keep track of their contacts, implement a payment provider to get money, and finally get peertube to give access to content depending on the state of a contact in the CRM...

So, to be able to implement a paywall like system peertube by itself would need to have both the ability to set permission to view on certain videos(or at the very least have a list of people to notify for certain videos), as well as API to control that programmatically(or for all videos of a certain type in a channel). I suspect this is also necessary for Patreon integration or any other such service.

You could extend this to little medals/ribbons etc for commenters who are supporting the show financially.

Of course, looking at this I feel the instinct wriggle that better moderation needs to be done first, especially things like a channel giving other people the ability to moderate a channel's community, as this is really the biggest time-sink for any moderately popular artist on social media, but this is a completely different topic.

@elevenpassin
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#1521 (comment)

@therahedwig
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Given the recent weird thing youtube is doing where it is demonitising channels because they might be advertiser unfriendly, I think it might be worth it to think about how an alternative approach to this can be handled.

First things first, marketting people are people too. They want to do work and tell their boss they did work good. So there is a market for making things easy on marketting people. The youtube issues right now is that youtube is not able to garantuee that adverts appear on wholesome channels so that people will not associate the brand with horrible things(horrible videos, horrible people in the comments) happening on the channel.

One of the main things about the fediverse is that moderation is human. Decentralization makes this feasible. So, technically speaking, a peertube instance can actually make a promise towards advertisers saying 'this is an instance only for children's videos', 'this is an instance only for technology', 'this is an instance only for art' and that the terms of service are followed very very closely. The ability to say this is super prestigious, and I think peertube instances could ask more money than the equivelant youtube video due this.

It is also important that peertube instances ask for more money, because there's a reason youtube doesn't do proper human moderation: it is expensive.

So, then, thinking in terms what is technically needed for this:

  • Integration with Matomo(Add Matomo support #1385 ). Statistics are necessary for the advertisers to understand how useful it will be to advertise on these channels.
  • The ability to have short videos before/between/after the main video.
  • The ability for users to define 'commercial breaks'
  • The ability to get some anonymous statistics for these. (Views, how long it was played, etc)

Now, for the ads themselves, they might either... come from a 3rd party, or come from an instance pool of ads.

3rd party adverts would be more in line with peertube's current stance towards advertisement("er, make a plugin"). There would need to be some kind of service that allows receiving info about videos and sending statistics towards such a service.

An instance pool on the other hand would be closer full integration, but there is a very good argument to be made for this: The less middlemen between the advertiser and the video creator, the more the video creator has power to negotiate a fair price. If you have a 3rd party system, the 3rd party could turn out to be something big like google, who'd benefit from having super low prices for everyone and for hiding to advertisers where their videos are going to end up. But not every video creator is equal, advertisers want the channels which are popular and are well moderated.

I think we should keep a sharp eye on what is possible to ensure that these super valuable channels(where people work hard to output quality content and keep a civil atmosphere) have a strong position when negotiating versus advertisers, because advertisers want to be able to share in the cultural and social capital these channels have accumulated, and I think channels should be rewarded for that.

Sorry if this comes across as a bit rambly, but I really wanted to get that last paragraph across. It is not in the favor of advert giants to let this negotiation be possible, and I would like video creators to not have to advertise for a pittance, much like I wouldn't want to see illustrators work for 'exposure'.

@Booteille
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I would prefer to avoid totally any form of advertisement.
I think this encourage the marketing and I think it's a terrible thing.

Enabling any form of advertisement would inevitably lead to derives, I think. Where channels would just upload a lot of shorts videos just to get as much as money as they can. We saw that with YouTube.
I don't want to have the same schema with PeerTube.

I think the more ethical approach is something already said on this topic: Having the possibility to directly give money to instances owner and video creators.
Having something integrated (with addons) would be the best scenario. With the possibility for instances owner to display publicly how much they need and to automatically give them fees when paying creators.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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an who will judge if a channel, video or comment is horrible or not? the minister of conscience?
YT started already an Owelian insanity, so now you want peertube doing the same? well, sad times....

@zicmama
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zicmama commented Feb 23, 2019

You could use Duniter Libre Currency! Each Peertube Node would have 2 Ḡ1 wallet filled with an initial amount. Then each actions in Peertube could initiate 0,01 Ḡ1 transfer +/- beetween wallets with Metadata as Comment.

There is python API like https://git.duniter.org/clients/python/duniterpy

If you want to know more about "Monnaie Libre" project?
https://monnaie-libre.fr

@Booteille
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Booteille commented Feb 24, 2019

You could use Duniter Libre Currency! Each Peertube Node would have 2 Ḡ1 wallet filled with an initial amount. Then each actions in Peertube could initiate 0,01 Ḡ1 transfer +/- beetween wallets with Metadata as Comment.

There is python API like https://git.duniter.org/clients/python/duniterpy

If you want to know more about "Monnaie Libre" project?
https://monnaie-libre.fr

I am not an expert about cryptocurrencies but does it work in the same way as Bitcoin? Needing miners calculate things to generate money?

Because it seems to be extremely polluting (because it asks a lot of energy) and I don't think PeerTube should be associated with this kind of practices.

But if it's energy-friendly why not!

@zicmama
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zicmama commented Mar 4, 2019

I am not an expert about cryptocurrencies but does it work in the same way as Bitcoin? Needing miners calculate things to generate money?

Because it seems to be extremely polluting (because it asks a lot of energy) and I don't think PeerTube should be associated with this kind of practices.

But if it's energy-friendly why not!

This is energy efficient, because there is no competition for mining blocks (and no token reward), members are forging new blocks in a peaceful equivalent way and generate an equal part of Libre Currency every day as everyone.
See details http://duniter.org/

@Booteille
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Okay. Glad to read that! I'll read further about it!

@elevenpassin
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elevenpassin commented Mar 5, 2019

I totally agree with @Booteille

I don't think advertisements are good for Peertube's ecosystem. Instead, I prefer the patreon/librepay method of supporting your favourite channels via monthly, one time and yearly subscriptions will go a long way! Advertisements can easily mess up the whole ecosystem and push the whole peertube ecosystem towards youtube's hell of attention craving ecosystem. I also fear that advertisements will inevitably also hit the roots of Peertube's development & will likely effect the course of Peertube over time.

@therahedwig
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Coming back to this again:

Thinking about paywalls, what might also be interesting, and needs a bit of work on peertube's side:

Instead of accessing the latest video over a paywall, rather, access the archives. A video maker would just upload their videos, and the latest video would be watchable for free, but archive access requires subscription.

This is similar to how broadcast tv has worked for years, and we know that fans of a show will want access to previous versions.

This will require Peertube to be able to limit access to a once public video reliably, which is tricky with federation.

@elevenpassin
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@therahedwig I am attracted to the inverted version of this model. Think paid latest sessions, and eventually they become cheaper, and then free. So content which is in demand is at a higher cost and if you want to watch something for free you'll have to wait for the demand to go down?

@therahedwig
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@therahedwig I am attracted to the inverted version of this model. Think paid latest sessions, and eventually they become cheaper, and then free. So content which is in demand is at a higher cost and if you want to watch something for free you'll have to wait for the demand to go down?

I think in the end it'll be a per-channel type of thing. A narrative driven show might paywall the latest episode, but a video essayist might want to make their last video public and paywall the previous ones, as in the case of the show, viewers will want to know how it continues, while in the case of the video essayist, it is important to them to have the videos that are part of the current discourse to be public. A cooking channel could do great with either method, I think.

@ZenoArrow
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ZenoArrow commented Jul 17, 2019

I've been thinking about the ethical payments side of PeerTube for about a day now, and have got a collection of ideas that I'd be interested in hearing feedback on.

Just to get this out of the way first, I agree with keeping advertising support to an absolute minimum, partly because it gives advertisers influence that they need not have and partly because it often has a detrimental effect on creative content.

However, if PeerTube is going to grow, we should be honest with ourselves that file storage and Internet bandwidth doesn't come for free, and it will almost certainly be tricky for PeerTube to provide a healthy alternative to YouTube if purely relying on the altruism of early adopters.

What I had in mind was a service that is very similar to Flattr, which pays creators based on splitting a recurring fee that users pay to support them.

https://flattr.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flattr

On some level, using the standard Flattr service would be a good step forward (if Flattr chose to support PeerTube), but I think we have the potential to offer something even better.

Something that struck me is that IPFS and PeerTube could work very well together.

https://ipfs.io/

For those that are unfamiliar with IPFS, the simplest explanation I can think of is that it's a decentralised peer-to-peer file system. Users that host content on IPFS will have the option of being paid in a currency called Filecoin (I think it's still under development, not quite ready for widespread use yet), which helps to ensure they're not left out of pocket for the service they provide. Two nice features of Filecoin compared to many cryptocurrencies are that the currency is earned by producing a tangible good (file storage) and that earning currency does not involve highly energy intensive processes (from my limited knowledge, earning Filecoin seems to be based on providing proof that the storage you have indicated is available for IPFS to use is truly available).

So how does this link to PeerTube? Firstly, considering that it's possible to run torrent sites on IPFS, in principal it's possible to run a PeerTube instance on IPFS. As an example, there's a torrent site called Torrent Paradise that runs on top of IPFS:

https://medium.com/chainrift-research/ipfs-powered-torrent-paradise-is-decentralized-and-invulnerable-fde51a0bc4d6

By running a PeerTube instance on IPFS, aside from enabling a PeerTube instance to make use of the extra storage capacity that IPFS could provide, it also means we can make use of Filecoin to help keep this PeerTube instance alive.

Now that I've set the scene, hopefully the rest of this idea is easier to explain. Imagine a Flattr-like service for PeerTube where users buy Filecoin, which is then split between file hosts and content creators. File hosts would be paid off first to keep the service going, and all remaining funds would be split amongst content creators (based on the same approach used by Flattr).

One potential downside I can currently see with this plan is that I'm not 100% sure how fast it is to access content on IPFS, but it should be possible to test out whether the performance would be adequate. Another potential downside is that it may end up limiting the hosting options available for paid PeerTube instances, which is something to guard against. Also, there may be simpler ways of achieving the main benefits of what I've set out, I'm open to suggestions.

Any thoughts?

@Aluriak
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Aluriak commented Jul 31, 2019

Any thoughts?

Flattr is a wonderful idea (but centralized, unfortunately). Integration with Peertube should be studied along the one with patreon, tipeee and liberapay, ASAP and KISS.

Filecoin is interesting. For creators, it would be a simple way to have their videos somewhere in exchange of some price. It enables any creator with some money to have their videos online, and the price is an incentive to become host themselves.

IPFS is a very good tech ; but it's just starting to grow. I'm not sure Peertube should do anything for it now, but in the long run those two may work together. Like having Peertube be able to serve as an IPFS gateway for videos (which could be in turn plugged with the Filecoin system).

  1. For the moment, the easy thing is to allow channels to show buttons toward arbitrary websites with an icon next to each video. This way, creators can easily reference their patreon and alike. (interface-wise: an horizontal list of "buttons", populated using two widgets : a drop-down list of icons (taken from font-awesome + icons of some big providers like patreon + the "upload icon" enabling arbitrary image), and an url to fill. Hit enter: the button is added to the video)

  2. Next step would be to provide a more integrated interface for some website (e.g. patreon may provide statistics about money raised and goals, youtube could provide number of view, etc).

  3. Then, sometime, the time for IPFS integration will come.

To me, the Fediverse on IPFS sounds like the next humanity goal, after the moon landing and internet invention. I may be biased.

@MacroDeSatire
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MacroDeSatire commented Aug 21, 2019

I'm so glad I've stumbled upon this discussion. I've been thinking about monetization on the platform, and I want to share some thoughts of my own and commenting on a lot of the ones mentioned here.

Adverts:
My feelings about advertising (As we know it on say youtube with prerolls and banners) on the platform/network is a bit mixed. I'm not against it but I'm also wary of it. On one hand, I agree that with instances have greater control of their target audience where they can have it as niche as they like could be an advantage for creators and advertisers. Remember, the problem with ads on youtube has a bit of two-way street when it comes to all of the ad controversies on youtube. There are things that advertisers don't want their money supporting, and creators don't want certain ads appearing on their videos. In a decentralized system like Peertube, the advertisers and Peertube instance admins/creators have a bit more control of who's advertising to what like in the instance pool idea.

On the other hand, there is a number of problems with ads on the platform. I can see this splitting the network as some instances have both viewers and creators coming to Peertube instances to get away from advertisers trying to sell them stuff. I'm also skeptical of how cleanly the plugins would federate across the network, and if it can I would imagine the more grassroots instances that sync with an advertising instance would be alienated by that.

If anything, I see a lot of ads on Peertube (if it gets bigger in the future) coming from sponsors for creators or instances from what I see is currently possible. Of course, this is all theoretical.

Flattr
I actually really like the idea of Flattr or Flattr-like product being used for the platform. From day one I wanted to see if Peertube might implement something like youtube red/Premium where the sub is split across the creators you watch, and instances you are one, and Flattr comes close to that vision.

If we could implement integration Flattr or make something similar to that on Peertube, that would make my day.

Though speaking of Flattr this is this other idea I've seen floating around that I like:

Retribute
This is an interesting project I found on the Fediverse. While a lot for crowdfunding services are centralized, Retribute tries to aggregate all support options for a user/creator with the goal being eventually similar to Flattr/BAT: more interaction means more payment to the creator. It's only at the start of development and needs some work, but I love this idea. I hope it gains some traction in the future.
https://eliotberriot.com/2019/06/09/introducing-retribute-a-decentralized-open-effort-to-support-creators.html
https://eliotberriot.com/2019/06/16/retribute-technical-architecture.html

Coil/interledger (EDIT NEW EDITION)

Recently I just found out about https://coil.com/ this seems like a similar idea to flattr but sends a micropayment for users browsing the content. It uses a protocol called "Interledger Protocol RFC" for how it mediates the payment. I think having a plugin based on coil or from Interledger to make a peertube integrated version could be another micropayment option akin to youtube premium or flattr.

IPFS
While I'm skeptical of cryptocurrencies, File Coin interests me for as file hosting solutions. I know Lbry is trying its hand at something similar in trying to rent out storage through their currency. The only thing that I would consider is that Peertube viewers don't necessarily come from Peertube itself. either coming from other parts of the Fediverse or accountless (probably using RSS to follow WOO!). I think those type of users needs to be considered as well for file coin exchanges. Voluntary of course.

Users Paying For Storage
I can see this being an unpopular method for instances, but I can see it happening. Storage and bandwidth can be expensive so having users pay to be hosted is one method of doing this without a paywall if this something an instance is trying to avoid. With proper scaling, I can see it useful from people who occasionally upload something for the hell of it to those who are more interested in being self-employed through fan support one way or the other.

Cooperative Platform Method
When I first came to the Fediverse, one of the mastodon instances I came across was Social.coop. It uses a cooperative style structure in its management. This instance is democratically run with users having some decision making power.

I feel it would be interesting to see instances that are governed by creators. After all, many creators have stated in the past a platform should be for the creators. How it would work is that members pay a membership fee that would cover the cost of operation. Depending on the governance structure, the creators would have a say in any decision on the instance or elect a board of members. Otherwise, the creators would be largely independent and using fan support and other methods for monetization.

In fact I found a french coop, p2p.legal, trying to do implement coop platforms with one being a peertube instance, tube.p2p.legal/. Though it seems that it plans to pay members through Duniter's ğ1 from what I've seen from a translation. Definitely and interesting way of going about this.

And those are all of my thoughts. I know some of the last ideas were more instance-centric than a creator, but are still ideas on how to keep them afloat. I definitely felt the need to contribute.

@c-prompt
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The primary reason I built a PeerTube instance was to experiment and determine how to best integrate it into my existing project that is all about people exchanging values and making a profit when they add value to others. I'm interested in your comments and ideas for integration as ethics and privacy are key aspects driving my project.

@ghost
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ghost commented Nov 13, 2019

In my opinion you don't need to integrate a payment system into PeerTube. There are plenty of external services content creators can use to monetize their content. PeerTube should focus on improving the UI/UX for content creators and users, to attract them to the platform. Much of the bullshit content on youtube is specifically people looking to make a living out of it. What made youtube grow was the organic content people wanted to make because they wanted to make it. Then the flock of wannabe like, favourite, share, subscribe, follow my twitter and insta started happening.

In case you want to proceed, an integration with donorbox [1] would be non-intrusive and seamless.

[1] https://donorbox.org/

@ZenoArrow
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Donorbox seems like it could be a good platform for content creators, but we also need to think about how to fund content hosters. Relying on the spare bandwidth of personal internet connections is fine when PeerTube is small, but at some point (if PeerTube continues to grow) there's probably going to be a need for seedboxes, and they cost money. Content creators are free to choose whatever monetisation platform suits them best, but bandwidth doesn't come for free, and if we want to move away from the ad-supported model of sites like YouTube we need to tackle this head on.

@zicmama
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zicmama commented Nov 13, 2019

About monetization, maybe Peertube could use G1Tag associated to its media and nodes.
https://www.g1sms.fr/fr/blog/g1tag

And use it to build a "file economy" between Nodes (readers) & Files (storage) as for CopyLaRadio Jukebox: https://www.copylaradio.com/blog/blog-1/post/jukebox-interplanetaire-9

@ZenoArrow
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I don't speak French, but from what I can see from the translated pages the Interplanetary Jukebox model seems interesting.

@tilllt
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tilllt commented Dec 12, 2019

Not to come across like the super capitalist asshole, but what exactly is the problem of having the option to plug-in a regular payment system which uses a standard money exchange (PayPal, Creditcard, maybe Bitcoin et Al.) and enable people to offer Video On Demand via Peertube as a platform?

@rigelk
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rigelk commented Dec 13, 2019

@tilllt please read our note in the FAQ. TLDR': it is better to write plugins (since we have a plugin API that allows such things).

@tilllt
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tilllt commented Dec 13, 2019

Absolutely no offense intended here, but I think you have a limited understanding of who might be interested in an independent video Streaming platform. The classical means in which YouTube is used (and in which creators that want to monetize) is similar to how commercial Free to View Television is financed. Which is advertisements or sponsorship.

Well and then there is a whole different tradition of monetization, which probably had its roots in Cinema and theater. You pay, then you can see the content. I studied filmmaking, I know a lot of indipendent filmmakers: the demands of presenting their work is different than a YouTube channel. There are a plethora of VoD platforms to accommodate that, recently even Vimeo and YouTube jumped that pay per view bandwagon. Then you have a difference between subscription based vod (Netflix, Mubi etc.) and pay per view (Amazon Video does that, realeyz, DocAlliance etc.pp.usually branded and / or curated to s subject i.e. only docs, only short films etc) ... This type of pay per view VoD is not at all discussed here, although I personally find it to be one of the most honest methods of accessing content. You wanna see something, you pay for it.

In any case I think it would be good to have this potential user group in mind as well, since there is nothing which gives filmmakers a really fair share of the VoD fee. Obviously, in a Peertube network, the ones that provide storage and bandwidth for this type of streaming would have to be paid somehow for their contribution, as well as a fee to the Peertube team itself. Still I bet it would be a much better deal than anything commercially offered. Another problematic issue would be that it would be necessary / desirable to have stats over the maximum amount of possible streams and at which bandwidth. Filmmakers are usually very concerned that their film is played in a decent quality, something which the average YouTuber doesn't care about at all.

@ghost ghost mentioned this issue Jan 1, 2020
@trymeouteh
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trymeouteh commented Jan 21, 2020

Peertube should make its own advertising platform were ads can me managed on a peertube instance or we can have peertube advertising instances that can connect to peertube instances. No third party needed, and ads can be privacy respecting.

Another option is a cryptocurreny and if that is the case I would suggest making a peertube token on the Tari blockchain platform with unlimited supply, Tari is a sidechain of Moneor and that way PeerTube token can have privacy built in by default.

@ZenoArrow
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ZenoArrow commented Jan 21, 2020

Peertube should make its own advertising platform were ads can me managed on a peertube instance or we can have peertube advertising instances that can connect to peertube instances. No third party needed, and ads can be privacy respecting.

Relying on advertising to keep a platform afloat is like pissing on yourself to keep yourself warm, it works but it's messy and something that should only be done if you're desperate. Privacy concerns are just one of the downsides, the caustic effect it has on culture is arguably a much bigger issue.

Another option is a cryptocurreny and if that is the case I would suggest making a peertube token on the Tari blockchain platform with unlimited supply, Tari is a sidechain of Moneor and that way PeerTube token can have privacy built in by default.

Whether cryptocurrency or standard currency is used is up for debate, but it's not really the main issue. The main issue is how monetisation is integrated in the platform. If privacy is your main focus I can see why you'd be in favour of cryptocurrency, but we need to look at how the currency is distributed. Either we have something which requires manual work from users to manage (i.e. one off donations), in which case there's basically no limit on the type of funding platforms that can be used, or we look at building something more automated (such as paid subscriptions, to give one example), in which case it needs to be something more closely aligned with the platform.

To give an example of the latter, Twitch streamers get money for subscriptions, and this allows (some of) them to make a living just producing content. It doesn't matter if they're being paid in cryptocurrency or in dollars, what matters is that they're being paid.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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ROBERT-MCDOWELL commented Jul 26, 2022

@arucard21
well, why do you want to reinvent the wheel? go to YT, they do exactly what you are expecting for....
the thing you must know is users and developers who are using PeerTube are especially the guys who are fed up of advertising cancer.... now if you really wish all what you ask, do it in plugin and create a PR.

@arucard21
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I wasn't saying that we must have ads in PeerTube. I was just discussing it as one of many monetization options. To see if it can be done in an ethical and privacy-respecting way. And for all monetization options (not just advertising), it was already considered best if it were only implemented as plugins. I also don't like ads but when it comes to monetization options, it's one of very few options where the money comes from a third-party and not the viewers. So if there are better ways to support content creators without viewers having to pay for it directly, I'd love to hear it.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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ROBERT-MCDOWELL commented Jul 27, 2022

So if there are better ways to support content creators without viewers having to pay for it directly, I'd love to hear it

there is no solution to support content creators in a rigged system where the big corrputed corp have free money since 25 years breaking and killing the so called business competition.
you can faint monetization by creating your own crypto, but again, doing that you play the game of the fully corrupted system where the bad guys control the money used by the everyday (ignorant) masses... welcome to the hard reality...

@ZenoArrow
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ZenoArrow commented Jul 27, 2022

@arucard21

So if there are better ways to support content creators without viewers having to pay for it directly, I'd love to hear it.

This is the core of your stance, but you're missing the forest for the trees. Asking viewers to (voluntarily) pay for content is preferable to a system where advertisers get their claws into the platform. It doesn't matter how "ethical" the advertising is, the end result is still emotional manipulation of the user base. Looking for ways to get advertisers onto PeerTube is like saying "I don't mind if I'm lied to if you give me free stuff", it's an abusive relationship, and you should re-evaluate what damage it's causing to society at large.

@peertubehubgit
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peertubehubgit commented Jul 31, 2022

Just throwing in some visual concept binding donations to storage, exposing the creator's quota to the viewer of the channel in which payment plugins? could API access/supply data for.
Instead of showing an ad, create confronting awareness based on storage being over threshold and/or underfunded per channel. This on the page where a video of the channel is shown.
Value's would include instance and creator individually configurable margins.
donate-creator

@Nalem14
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Nalem14 commented Aug 15, 2022

Hi, I have made a plugin that enable 3 options to allow monetization.

  • Banner ads // Only monetize instance admin. Add banner ads on videos list and search result
  • Video ads // Allow creators to enable video ads on there videos settings. (like youtube skip ad)
  • Crypto-miner // Allow creators to enable miner on there videos settings. Users can opt-out (it is optional and clearly showed)

For ads provider, I use my own business craftyourads.com. Privacy respecting. Simply no targeting from any users datas. Only use targeting by website categories. (Know that it is in early dev stage)

For crypto-miner, I have used coinimp.com.

Each features can be enabled/disabled by instance admin in the plugins settings. Your are free to use what you want. :)

Attention:: Payout have to be manually sent to users by the admin. Users can make payout request in its Account page, and admin can see list in the admin area.

Plugin name: orion-monetization

@ghost
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ghost commented Nov 24, 2022

Hi all.

I have an idea that I think is good or interesting, but I want to hear everyone's opinion here.

Idea: part of the monetization of videos could go back to helping some social organization. For example, companies usually charge 10% of financial transaction.

  • What if that 10% was returned to communities of independent software developers or non-profit organizations?
  • What do you all think of this idea? Is this idea good?

If anyone can answer I would be happy for some feedback.

@agates
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agates commented Jun 14, 2023

Hi all.

I have an idea that I think is good or interesting, but I want to hear everyone's opinion here.

Idea: part of the monetization of videos could go back to helping some social organization. For example, companies usually charge 10% of financial transaction.

* What if that 10% was returned to communities of independent software developers or non-profit organizations?

* What do you all think of this idea? Is this idea good?

If anyone can answer I would be happy for some feedback.

Via the lightning plugin the basic setup is to add a host % which is automatically calculated from anything the user chooses to send. The channel owners can add as many "splits" as they want which could go to any organization. It would be great to get PeerTube/Framasoft a percentage, even.

The idea is the user opts-in to send payments every minute they watch or send lump sums sort of like superchats/twitch bits. It's working well so far even with RSS feed integration in 5.2 for podcast players like Podverse.

While the concept is working for us with lightning payments today, the idea scales to anything that supports micropayments. Obviously someone has to put in the work.

@satonotdead
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I like the general idea but LN is an insecure and buggy ultra experimental scientist concept.

I'd love a Monero (true cryptocurrency with top notch community) implementation. Peertube is really decentralized, not like LN those days.

USDT is an scam, Bitcoin is not possible to be used like money. Some guys likes Nano but they have a very shady past with at least three rebrandings.

Monero wins without narratives, just being digital cash.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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Job-Currency is promising too... I think I'm going to make a plugin to easily integrate it.

@agates
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agates commented Dec 11, 2023

I like the general idea but LN is an insecure and buggy ultra experimental scientist concept.

I'd love a Monero (true cryptocurrency with top notch community) implementation. Peertube is really decentralized, not like LN those days.

Monero wins without narratives, just being digital cash.

I love Monero. I run a full public node.

However, we're actually using lightning in Podcasting 2.0 and the infrastructure is in place and in use today with thousands of micro transactions. Is it ideal? No, but it's working.

The basic idea is the user enters an amount they want to send per minute that they watch (listen), and can send larger amounts ad-hoc with a message to the creator. We use that message a sort of super chat.

Monero is the most suitable candidate to be able to handle that level of transaction volume but the infrastructure needs to be in place first... Are there reliable Monero browser extensions to connect to for sending payments? How would it work on mobile?

I want to use Monero, but I think the nature of its organic growth means it will take longer for the necessary tools to be made.

@satonotdead
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satonotdead commented Dec 11, 2023

I like the general idea but LN is an insecure and buggy ultra experimental scientist concept.
I'd love a Monero (true cryptocurrency with top notch community) implementation. Peertube is really decentralized, not like LN those days.
Monero wins without narratives, just being digital cash.

I love Monero. I run a full public node.

However, we're actually using lightning in Podcasting 2.0 and the infrastructure is in place and in use today with thousands of micro transactions. Is it ideal? No, but it's working.

The basic idea is the user enters an amount they want to send per minute that they watch (listen), and can send larger amounts ad-hoc with a message to the creator. We use that message a sort of super chat.

Monero is the most suitable candidate to be able to handle that level of transaction volume but the infrastructure needs to be in place first... Are there reliable Monero browser extensions to connect to for sending payments? How would it work on mobile?

I want to use Monero, but I think the nature of its organic growth means it will take longer for the necessary tools to be made.

Thanks for your following up. I understand and fully respect your points but I reafirm we need to value the fundamentals besides the actual status quo or confort.

At 2023 decentralization is full mandatory. We know what happened to Twitter, Reddit or Youtube indeed. I share some projects that could be helpful:

https://github.com/lukeprofits/Monero_Subscriptions_Wallet
https://github.com/spirobel/monero-discourse-subscriptions

Of course they need a lot of work and they are probably not very useful on the specific issue but I hope they help with the basics or cool ideas.

Privacy is freedom.

Repository owner deleted a comment Jan 12, 2024
@OrcVole
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OrcVole commented Jan 25, 2024

There is a discussion regarding integrating Peertube with Liberapay here:
liberapay/liberapay.com#1158

Repository owner deleted a comment from lorrainennewton Mar 2, 2024
@maltfield
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Plugin name: orion-monetization

@Nalem14 can you please provide a link to this plugin?

@satonotdead
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satonotdead commented Jan 26, 2025

There is a discussion regarding integrating Peertube with Liberapay here: liberapay/liberapay.com#1158

Sad. They're currently the opposite of free payments:

The available payment methods depend on which payment processors are supported by the recipient. If a payment is processed by Stripe, then most credit and debit cards (American Express, Cartes Bancaires, Diners, Discover, JCB, Mastercard, UnionPay, and Visa) are accepted, as well as SEPA Direct Debits (only for donations in euros to recipients in SEPA countries). If a payment is through PayPal, then it's possible to pay in various ways, however the donor needs to have or create a PayPal account.

Banks, Stripe, Paypal and every single centralized payment processor pushes the opposite ethos than Peertube. They can censor, limit and steal the money recieved without any warning and with a simple authority request.

You can see a working true decentralized donating platform on https://xmrchat.com/. No Paypal, no Stripe, no SEPA, no banks.

That's the real way to go. Hard times requires hard decisions.

@maltfield
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maltfield commented Jan 26, 2025

I think we should support both, but we should prioritize implementation of monero transactions first.

@satonotdead
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satonotdead commented Jan 26, 2025

I don't think so, open-source software should NOT comply with censorship of any kind. They work better with commercial apps funded by Venture Capital.

@mpeter50
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I don't think so, open-source software should NOT comply with censorship of any kind.

And it wont if Peertube will support donations both ways. But I think we also need a way for the average person to be able to support their creators. Especially since obtaining Monero is becoming ever harder, even for those who know they want it.

Besides, I think we dont want to be that weird platform that only supports crypto, especially one that is less popular (unfortunately). I agree that Monero is one of the very few that is not a scam, but I think many dont know that.
Also, only having support for crypto at all would shed a bad light on us for those who were bitten by a scam cryptocurrency, or are just otherise skeptic about the whole thing.

@satonotdead
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satonotdead commented Jan 27, 2025

the average person

The average watch shorts on Youtube, not Peertube. They money will be bailed for every single company like it was bailed before.

Peertube is the most used free alternative related to video-media on the entire internet. It needs to remain FREE of control and censorship.

Monero is the only curreny real P2P digital currency with censorship resistant, PoW and a solid community around.

Peertube is against the status-quo being a solid niche project like Monero and they don't need anything from Paypal or Stripe.

You think about scalate and that's completely fake. The only that scalate is what's aligned with that VCs mandate.

This is not the case.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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In this rigged system you have 2 choices:

  • play THEIR game with THEIR fake true money printing and if you have too much success the men in black will knock your door and tell you: "we offer you 3 millions and you sell to us (and later they will trash it), or you or your family will probably have a regrettable accident"
  • not play their game and say to them "GTFY you and your money printing in HLL" and respect what is really open source in a long, honnest and genuine term, for current and further human generations.

now, if, by miracle, the system is mutating in a true economy, based on merit and real value exchange like gold or silver, then this is something that will change the game radically.

@mpeter50
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The average watch shorts on Youtube, not Peertube.

Currently. But here we are trying to improve PeerTube for everyone, in the hopes that it will become better known in the future. I think we cant ignore the needs of the average person just because they are not yet here.
Understand that for some of us the reason of using PeerTube is not to be on a niche platform, but to not be dependent on services of a very specific user-hostile company.

It needs to remain FREE of control and censorship.

I think it will remain free by still supporting Monero. Why do you think it cant?

Monero is the only curreny real P2P digital currency with censorship resistant.

Or at least to a largest extent currently. But that may still not be enough if its hard to obtain. And you too must know that its hard to obtain, especially the onboarding.
And what does a donate mechanism worth if only a fraction of the viewers can use it?

I hope that Monero's availability too will increase in one way or another, but as long as you can only obtain it in very large quantities on decentralized exchanges, it surely wont.

So it is very good that it is censorship resistant, and private, but other people are working hard to make it even more people-resistant.

Peertube is against the status-quo being a solid niche project like Monero and they don't need anything from Paypal or Stripe.

PeerTube doesnt need anything from them, directly. But it needs more content creators, and content creators need ways to earn something for the time they put in planning, recording and editing their videos, and moderating their comments.

You think about scalate and that's completely fake. The only that scalate is what's aligned with that VCs mandate.

Sorry, I dont understand this one. What do you mean with "scalate"?


We dont need to have common payment processors as the primary method of dontations, but I think we need to support their use in some form, if the instance admin or the channel owner wants to have it.

@mpeter50
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now, if, by miracle, the system is mutating in a true economy, based on merit and real value exchange like gold or silver, then this is something that will change the game radically.

I think a lot of people dont see the value in any kind of cryptocurrency as of now. There were and still are so many scams in cryptocurrencies (like in almost every facet of life), and only the scams and the bad news hit the mainstream news, if anything.

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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ROBERT-MCDOWELL commented Jan 27, 2025

@mpeter50 at what part of my comment I said to use kryptos? I said REAL silver/gold metal, nothing else.
or a real currency based on these metals with a reserve of 80% min, controlled by THE people, with audit every month to see if the vaults are always 80%. The humanity ran more than 10,000 years with these 2 metals (and surely more), so why to continue to follow as you said scammers and full mode looney banksters and corpofascists whom hope only one thing, reduce population and control all planet resources?
Also how many people think that the currency is the value? give me a break. the real value is WORK, what humans are producing, digitally or physically, it's each human creating a value, not the currency. silver and gold are just a guarantee that no more than the production done will be created. and these metals are very limited.

@mpeter50
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I assumed you brought real gold/silver as a metaphor. How would you use these on an online platform, where the content creator may be hundreds or thousands of kilometres away?

The humanity ran more than 10,000 years with these 2 metals (and surely more), so why to continue to follow as you said scammers and full mode looney banksters and corpofascists whom hope only one thing, reduce population and control all planet resources?

Because you cannot use an internet connection to send physical valuables. 10,000 years ago there was no internet, and the problem we are trying to solve here did not exist.

you can donate valuables with the use of a delivery service, but PeerTube cannot facilitate that, other than letting the content creator publish a delivery address in their bio

Also how many people think that the currency is the value? give me a break. the real value is WORK, what humans are producing, digitally or physically, it's each human creating a value, not the currency.

how do you donate work over the internet? not everybody can help in programming, and most content creators wouldnt need that either. and while people are watching videos, they often couldnt donate work either, becaue they are on mobile, or at work, or at home but tired after work. what they have available is money. or isnt that the case?

@ROBERT-MCDOWELL
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ROBERT-MCDOWELL commented Jan 27, 2025

I assumed you brought real gold/silver as a metaphor. How would you use these on an online platform, where the content creator may be hundreds or thousands of kilometres away?

simple, TRUST between the 2 parties as it always been in commerce.

Because you cannot use an internet connection to send physical valuables. 10,000 years ago there was no internet, and the problem we are trying to solve here did not exist.

well, are you sure of that, you were there to check if they didn't have the same tech of us today? unless granite that can show artifacts for more than 50,000 years, the rest finishes in dust after a couple of hundreds.

you can donate valuables with the use of a delivery service, but PeerTube cannot facilitate that, other than letting the content creator publish a delivery address in their bio

Peertube is a TOOL, like when you have a knife to cut your bread. so when you use your knife do you call the knife factory to tell if they can give you a percentage of their sales or use their brand to make money?

how do you donate work over the internet? not everybody can help in programming, and most content creators wouldnt need that either. and while people are watching videos, they often couldnt donate work either, becaue they are on mobile, or at work, or at home but tired after work. what they have available is money. or isnt that the case?

before to donate, people want to TRUST. unless they are part of warren buffet family crocks, they need TRUST not to PEERTUBE but to the creator, before to donate. and if they want to donate, believe me, they will even directly from bank to bank, or even send cash, or use their own currency, because they TRUST to each others.

@satonotdead
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satonotdead commented Jan 27, 2025

Currently. But here we are trying to improve PeerTube for everyone, in the hopes that it will become better known in the future.

I really like to read this but it's currently impossible and we are on a clear data war. Just check Twitter deleting their 2011-2014 media, bannings on APIs from Reddit, Youtube censoring private and lightweight clients and so on.

Freedom is not allowed inside, only obedience and punishments. The genuine tools helping their users needs to be decentralized and completely free of they power and control.

It probably sounds reasonable those days. Everything is moving and accelerating, right now.

Why do you think it cant?

Unfortunately it's about time if you work with Stripe or another payment provider at the same time, who works directly taxing for the ones that dictates their censorship globally rules.

Freedom is community power, lazyness is to engage with their rules.

And what does a donate mechanism worth if only a fraction of the viewers can use it?

All the viewers should recieve direct money totally free from censorshsip, surveillance, blocking, taxing or bans.

That's the way you growth, with real and completely free alternatives. You can't beat Youtube and banks playing their rules.

I hope that Monero's availability too will increase in one way or another

There is no need to increace the availability designed to be free, just to use and accept it.

It's currently impossible that goverments and their partners (corpos) allow it on their exchanges. They delisted XMR everywhere and the pair with USD is 30% UP.

Monero is used from their beginning as a private and free currency, works by design and proved integrity over the years.

It's fully funded by their generous community.

We only need awareness and human communities. Check https://retoswap.com/

but other people are working hard to make it even more people-resistant.

One decides to stop fullfilling their bags. We have the tools and we are currently doing it.

But it needs more content creators

It needs to continue being solid and support the hard times we are all living right now.

Check https://xmrchat.com/

What do you mean with "scalate"?

The mania of numbers going up. It's what everything those days is about (for the majority that uses Youtube).

The pressure is so much, everything will blow soon for the air.

I think a lot of people dont see the value in any kind of cryptocurrency as of now.

Check https://xmrbazaar.com/

I said REAL silver/gold metal, nothing else.

Silver and gold are not designed for digital interaction but I'm with you and I like them for keep my money out of debasement.

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